Re: various vector...

On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, Neil Bradley wrote:
> >
> > So if it's decided that there's zero tolerance policy for sales of any
> > sort, I'll start a list on Synthcom. Arguing about such petty shit is a
> > waste of time, and severly off topic. The people on this list and their
> > posts are quite valuable, including the for sale posts, so don't make
> > those of us who do appreciate relevant forsale posts suffer because of
> > an emotional inability to hit the delete key.
>
> [ ... ] Everything will be peachy until the eBayers show up, and then
> history will just repeat itself, and you'll be forced to post list
> policy messages/take action just like we are now. I don't mean to
> sound corny, but it's my opinion that we need to learn from history
> and not repeat it by letting for sale posts permeate into a technical
> forum.

Three points, then my personal take on the situation:

1) Nowhere is it written that a mailing list is, or should be, a
   democracy. Those who maintain the list and moderate it have
   the right - by virtue of the code that supports the list - to
   make the decisions. That applies to people on *both* sides of
   this debate.

2) Unnecesarily forking code is evil. There Should Be Only One.

   It looks like that means I'm going to have to subscribe to two
   vectorlists. What are the odds that I'm going to post my problems
   to both lists? Or for that matter, my fixes? If the S/N ratio of
   vectorlist-with-commerce is as high as the old vectorlist, I'll
   abandon the old one, albeit with regret.

   If vectorlist-with-commerce drains clued authors away from vectorlist,
   vectorlist's traffic will drop. The S/N ratio may cease to be an
   issue for vectorlist, not for too much noise (the old "rasterlist"
   of a few years ago), but for too little signal.

3) Humans are excellent marketing-BS detectors.

   Is anyone seriously asserting that we can't tell the difference
   between a longtime contributor saying "I'm working on this, and
   have a need of some parts. I have a surplus of other parts, and
   perhaps we can trade" and some gibbering idiot saying "LQQK @ MY
   S00PER-3733+ P@C-M@N K@B!N3+ IM SELING ON EBAY 4 $1OOO!" with a
   page and a half of flashing HTML?

   Are we (as either a collective "we" or the moderators themselves)
   not sufficiently-clued to tell the difference and tolerate one while
   flaming the other to ash?

Speaking for myself, given the choice between "no commerce ever"
vectorlist and "people who have proven their worth are allowed to post
the occasional vector-related FS: or WTB:" vectorlist-prime, I'd prefer
the latter. Of course, I don't run the list, so this is just me talking
off the top of my head. Them that runs the system has the right to make
the rules.

My rationale is based on one thing we have in our favor (that we didn't
have on RGVAC): a mailing list isn't just "not a democracy", but that it
also tends to be more of a meritocracy, allowing for shades of grey
between the black and white of "is it commercial or not".

Also on commerce, I believe we're overlooking the difference between
"private individual trying to gauge support or funding for a project of
interest to many on the list" vs. "purely commercial organization hawking
wares". But that's a wholly different matter.

Back to meritocracy; the random EBayers will be flamed mercilessly and
dumped. The commercial operators looking to unload stock will be nuked.
The vector multigamers, monitor retrofitters, custom-restorers, and
specialists in obscure hardware and parts will survive.

The preceding paragraph wasn't "what I think vectorlist-with-commerce will
be", but "what vectorlist has been". It's essentially "what USENET was"
back when the only people on USENET had sufficient clue to differentiate
between "holding a board sale" and "clicking on the spam-USENET button at
Ebay".

My hunch is that when I unsubscribe to vectorlist, it won't be because of
this policy dispute, but because an alternative mailing list has been
started that serves the community better, the list has reached critical
mass, and there's consequently little traffic on the old list. If the
competing list fails due to lack of interest (i.e. doesn't reach critical
mass), nothing will have been proven either way, and vectorlist will still
be here. If the competing list fails by turning into a cesspit of Ebay
crap like RGVAC, vectorlist will have conclusively proven its case, and
will *also* still be here.

I honestly fail to see that vectorlist has a problem yet. Unlike USENET,
where moderation policies take a long time to change, mailing list
moderation policies can be changed relatively quickly, allowing us to act
if it becomes a problem. (This said - if the list maintainers see it
as a problem, It's Their List, and by definition, Their Word Is Law.
A mailing list is not a democracy.)

Later,
Doug.

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